Buddhist Response to Euthanasia | Ajahn Brahm

Buddhist Response To Euthanasia by Ajahn Brahm And for this evening's tour, we got a request which I got from the internet. Uh, someone in a rather email trouble to society. And it's important to be able to give talks here, which is not just theoretical, which, uh, address problems of our daily lives, especially some of those big problems. And in the email that someone said that there's a law being contemplated in the UK parliament concerning euthanasia, and they wanted to have the comments about the Buddhist response to euthanasia. But at the same time, I'm going to also include abortion as well, because those of you who've been reading the newspapers, there's an election here in Oslo, Western Australia tomorrow, and that's also been a prominent prominent featured in the political discourse. Our religion and politics have come together in that area. So many people want to know exactly what is the Buddhist approach to those subjects. So this evening I'm going to be talking about this. So I apologize is not going to be so many jokes today because they'll be in bad taste. But nevertheless, these are important topics. The first thing I'd actually say about this is that as a monk, I was introduced as a spiritual director of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia. But I'm certainly not the spiritual dictator of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia. There's a lot of difference between being a director and being a dictator. A dictator tells you what to do, what to think, what to say, and our director only gives you advice. And this is very true to something very basic in Buddhism. This comes from one of the very well-known sayings from the time of the Buddha, where the Buddha said that Buddhas only show the way, the only point in the direction every being has to walk that path by themselves. It's a very oft quoted saying. And the reason is because it is very profound, has many different layers of meaning, and it's always been part of the Buddhist history that whether it's been a monk, even a senior monk, or a non anyone in the position of influence has never been an ultimate authority. Not even a Buddha would do that. He wouldn't say, this is what you should do. Follow it or else. There's no equivalent in Buddhism to a pope. Also, somebody on high telling people what to do, the whole role of a teacher. And this is what we have, rather than the pope rather than the priest, like a teacher, a guide. The whole job of a guide is actually to help people make their own decisions, not to make decisions for them. And so Buddhism will never have a hard and fast black and white sort of pronouncement on any of these issues, and is a very important reason for that, because these issues are never black and white in theory. Yes, they're black and white should you shouldn't kill or it's bad. But when it actually comes to real cases, instances which you have to deal with, then all the black and white, all the the rules of the game, which you've learned sometimes just do not apply. Remember, even years ago, one of the Buddhists from a long standing Buddhist are from a Buddhist society. And about 20 years ago he was diagnosed with having cancer. And he told me at that time he'd been meditating and learning all about Buddhism. He thought he knew everything about Buddhism. But as soon as that doctor came and told him he had cancer and probably not long to live, he said all his Buddhism went out the window and he cried. It was actually showing there. There is a great deal of difference between a theory and a deep understanding. And if all you do is to follow the signposts and Buddhas, show the way, follow the signposts, and you don't actually do the walking, you'll find that all these teachings have got hardly any meaning at all. You can't have black and white pronouncements. These are guides. You have to walk that journey for yourself to find out what these things truly mean. So the job of a monk like myself is to give you guidelines never to tell you what to do. To encourage you to try this and to look at these particular aspects while you're walking this path and see what happens, to reflect and learn. The whole purpose of life is not just to be faultless and never make a mistake, but to learn. Know about wisdom, about compassion, about life, about truths. It's not to make you faultless because, as you know, in any school and in life, the school of life, the faults happen, mistakes happened, but it's never any one of the things which impressed me and inspired me in Buddhism from the very beginning. There's never any idea of punishment, not even self punishment of guilt. It's always an encouraging you made a mistake, okay? Encourage you to learn from that and see what you can do next. And I think I mentioned that, uh, uh, when I made a mistake, uh, in, uh, in Thailand, my teacher, actually, and I would never, ever punish you. You just laugh and think it very funny. I'm not sure if I told this story here recently. The story of me misunderstanding the Thai word for soap was that here last week or oh, this is for example. This is an example. Trouble is, is that I travel around so much I give talks all over the place. I don't know what I said here, what I said somewhere else this evening. I have to go to uh, to India to on a leading a pilgrimage and I come back again. I live a very strange life, but sometimes I actually not. Sometimes for the last couple of months, I've been waking up in the morning. The first thing I do look around and see what country I'm in. Because I was in Sri Lanka just over a week ago in Malaysia, a few days before that. Crazy life as a monk. But anyway, on this particular occasion, this actually gives the idea of like guilt and punishment and forgiveness in Buddhism. The first couple of years as a monk in Thailand, it was a very poor monastery, staying with this great teacher, Asian cha. This person I got no, um, compunction now. No, about saying that he was fully enlightened as an hour hut. Now he's saying it's okay to say those things. But at that time it was a poor monastery. If you need anything, any requisite was a toothbrush or toothpaste. Or in this particular case, um, some soap. You go to your teacher and you have this big sort of a little water jar, and people give him things. He put it in there and you could go and ask for things like soap. And so I needed some soap. So I went up to him and I asked him for some soap. Now there's a few Thai people here. There were no. The word for soap is taboo. But I said, sir Po. Only a slight difference. But the thing is, sapo means pineapple. And so I can, I can, I can think, I can imagine my teacher now, I can recall his looking suppo. And I said, yeah, suppose I said, what do you want? You know, what do you want a pineapple for? And I said, oh, you know, to wash. To wash myself. And you just burst out laughing. And that was one of his stories for the next couple of days about these Westerners, you know, the different customs in the world. In Thailand they use soap. But in the West, in England they wash with pineapples. Neither is terribly funny. And that was actually typical. He never got punished for making a mistake. It was just a big joke. But you really learn from that time when I did learn the difference between South and Pineapple. So there's never any punishments. In this Buddhist tradition. And if somebody doesn't make a mistake, the monks then don't call you a sinner, or you're a bad person and excommunicate or do anything to you at all. They just encourage you to learn from your mistakes. So guilt has not got a part in this thing. So that's number one. You show the way. If you make a mistake, never mind, you can learn next time. It does help. Also in Buddhism we have this beautiful idea of rebirth or reincarnation. So you got the time to make mistakes, and they're wonderful that you don't have to rush to get enlightened. You don't have to strive so hard to be good. You just take your time. It'll work here. Not today, tomorrow, if not tomorrow, next month or not next month. Next year, not next year, next lifetime. Never mind. For those of you who just think, oh, I jump bombs going on pilgrimage, I really want to go to India. If not this time, the next time, if not next time, next life, there still be there. The point is, what that does, it gets away. This sort of, uh, rushing, this, uh, stress. I have to do this. I have to do that. And it gets it gets rid of the the harshness of an ethical life. You got time. Especially sometimes you don't have time to do your housework. But in Buddhism, you've got all the time to do your spiritual work. It's huge vistas of time in front of you. And the point is that when you stop rushing, when you're patient, that is the fastest way those people are rushed towards enlightenment. Take the longest time as you go, slowly. They're the ones who reached there first because it's enlightenment. Business is slowness, peace, stillness. So you can understand why those people who are peaceful, who are slow, they're the ones who get there first. So anyway, following that, the signposts teach you to understand, first of all, what ethics are. The Buddha actually gave these five signposts, which they've called the five Buddhist precepts. And many of you have taken those five Buddhist precepts, and you know them as not to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, take alcohol or drugs. But one of the things which again impressed me, and which many of my early teachers pointed out, and it made such a difference to me, and an appreciation of virtue as well. These were not commandments. The Buddha never said, thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. He said, I shall refrain from stealing. I shall refrain from killing. It was a more soft approach. You didn't see a person who sort of, like, killed or went fishing and say, get out of this Buddhist society. You're a murderer. You swatted a mosquito, I saw you. There's never any of this, like, harshness, but this is like a guidelines. One of the stories from again, my early years, there's one of our Dan Charles chief supporters. Some of you may have seen many years ago, we still have it in our video cassette library in the reception area of this movie called, I think, the The Mindful Way. I think it was called. It was a documentary done by the BBC. It must have been about 24 or 5 years ago where they visited at Earnshaw and his monastery in Thailand, did a documentary about him, and one of the laypeople who was figuring in that was a man called Poor Arm, and he was one of our two uncharged chief disciples. And this is his story. He was he got faith in this forest, monk, but he was a farmer, and he was very, very poor. And so he went up to Argentina one day and said, look, I've heard of these five priests that you shouldn't kill, steal, commit adultery, lie and take alcohol or drugs. I would like to keep these, but I have a problem. Now I have to say, my family and the only food we have is rice and fish or the other things which crawl on the ground. When I was a young man, continuous all you ate. There were no vegetables. The only green things you had were these the young leaves and the mango trees, which tasted awful. That's all you had. It was a subsistence economy, and people just ate rice and whatever sort of move, basically. And fish was one of the main sources of food. So I said, look, I have to catch fish, you know, for my family. Lisa was honest about it because I know at that time some of the Thai Buddhists, they weren't so honest. And they would actually say that, well, you know, we're not really killing catching fish. We just take them out of the water and they die by themselves. That's what they used to say. But at least, you know, these guys were honest. You can't actually say that you'd take her out of the water. You cause her death. So he said, what can I do? You know, if I keep those five precepts, my family die. Now, this is actually the Buddhist response to these ethical problems. Is is very practical, meaningful and beautiful. I just said, fine, catch fish catchy enough for you and your family to eat, but not enough to sell, just enough to get by. In the meantime, I just said, I will teach you another trade because as forest monks used to wander from place to place, one of the things which was part of their their upbringing, their learning as a young monk, would be to learn about the herbs and plants in the jungles and forests of Thailand, because there were no doctors. If you had a fever, whether it was malaria or got bitten by a snake or any other sickness, you would actually know the plants and the herbs in the forest and you would actually use those to heal yourself. It was the forest. Monks became the great herbalists and agencia in his early years, had also learned the different plants and routes which were available in the jungles and what they were, how to prepare them and what they were good for, and how they could heal this sickness or that sickness. And he was an expert, as many forest monks were. That was just one of the things you learned in passing these days as a monk, in a modern monk, especially in serpentine, where we become experts in these days is not herbalism, but in laying bricks and mixing concrete. If you want some advice on mixing concrete, just ask one of our senior monks. But anyhow, this agent said, okay, I'll teach you everything I know about herbalism. And a matter of 2 or 3 years he taught this man everything he knew. And so this man now had a new trade. He became the local herbal doctor so he could stop catching fish. He had a way to look after his family. So what? Agent cha is spiritual director. This guide was saying. He said, look, you've got to be practical. You have to catch fish because of your family. But I can help you move towards a greater sense of purity with your precepts. So was it bad that he was catching those fish in those early years? Was that a sin? Was that evil? If it was at lunch, I would never told him to do it. Because these fly precepts are not absolutes. Thou shalt not. They are guidelines, things we should aspire towards, if it's at all possible. They're never absolutes. Another example of that, which is, uh, one which I repeat very often. Many years ago, one of the disciples who, again, a longstanding disciple of our Buddhist society, one of the very earliest members, now he keeps coming to our armored group every so often. He's very, very old, in his 80s or something now, but still wanders in every now and again. About 10 or 12 years ago, he had a heart attack. He went to Royal Perth Hospital. They managed to save his life to keep him going, but he needed a bypass. So he was put on the emergency list for the bypass. They kept him in hospital. The next time there was an opportunity, he would be there having his bypass. He was in a room with four other with three other people, and I went to visit him several times when he had his bypass operation, just before the day before his bypass operation, his wife visited him and after the visit called me up at Serpentine Monastery. She was very agitated. He was the first and only time she's actually called me. And she said something happened. I want your advice. These are English couple. She said that I just lie to my husband for the first time in 30 years. And she felt so bad about this, as you probably would. So what have you done? What happened? And she said that what happened was in that ward in the next bed. The fellow called Jack or something who was as a ward. Everyone in that ward was waiting for the bypassing, and they put people with the same ailments in the same wards. He said he got a friendship up with this Jack being in the in the same room 24 hours a day for 3 or 4 days. And Jack was going to have this bypass operation the day before him. Jack had already had the bypass operation. He asked his wife, how are Jack done? And his wife said, fine. He's now in the ICU recovering. But that was a lie, said his wife, because the truth was that Jack died in the operation. Who she met his relations outside, and she said, I didn't really feel I could tell my husband that he was so sick and weak anyway. But if I had told my husband that his friend had died at the very operation he's going to have tomorrow. I thought that might make my husband so afraid it might actually push him over the edge and kill him. And as it happened that he was on the edge of life and death for several days, hallucinating, and it managed to keep him going. It was a touch and go because it was very old when he had his bypass operation. And I told the wife, okay, in that particular instance, you did the right thing to lie to your husband. I said that. And when people say to me, are you saying it is okay to lie? I say, yeah, once every 30 years, but no more. But. Because these are guidelines and guidelines of best. Similarly, which we can use to understand what is actually a guideline, because similarly we have to get something from our ordinary daily life to understand why what's going on here? And one of the best similes to understand the meaning of all this is a simile of the red traffic lights and the red traffic lights. You have to stop. It's against the law to go through them. As against the precepts of our government. But do you know exceptions when it's okay to go through red traffic lights? Of course, if you get a heart attack and somebody puts you in the car and they drive you to the nearest emergency department, I'd hope you go through the red traffic lights. But how do you go through them? You get to that red traffic light and you'd be careful. You'd stop. It's a warning. And you'd look if it was safe and it was an emergency, you go through, because that could save a person's life. And no policeman, no policeman would prosecute you for that. I know sort of one of the disciples in there again in Armada saw them a couple of days ago. Their partner had a heart attack, and they rushed them and put them in the car and rushed him to the Armidale Council Hospital. He went through every red lights he could find and he was so disappointed. There was no police car around to see her. At last I could go to a red light, she said. There's no place we could stop it. I never saw a policeman. But the point was that that's an occasion. I think no one would argue. The police wouldn't argue. The law wouldn't argue that's an emergency. That's the time to go through the red light. An emergency and it's safe. And that's actually how we look at these five precepts of the Buddha. These are rules when you come to that and breaking a piece of light, that lady lied to her husband. Red light. Stop! Is it really safe? Isn't an emergency. This is a special situation. If it is, then go across very rare that you have to do that, but sometimes you do. That's why these rules will never be black and white and that's why you can only have guidelines. How do you make those decisions? Not what the answer will be, but how to make those decisions. So when it gets to something like euthanasia, how do we make those decisions? I think many of you would know that the first person in the world to have legal euthanasia and Mr. Denny from Darwin, was a Buddhist. I never met him myself. But those of you who know our union. And by the way, he's coming to visit from the 3rd to the 10th of April. And some people call him and smiley, but his coming soon. He went to visit him in Royal Purse, because he came down for some treatment and talked about his situation and what was going on. And we all knew in our mind to see what was going on that this man, Mr. Dent, was a first person for legally assisted euthanasia, and it was not because of his own sickness. The major reason why he chose to have assisted euthanasia. Was assisted suicide was because of his concern for his wife, his disease, whatever. Had no possibility of any cure, it could last for many years. He was quite willing to tolerate the discomfort and pain. Despite all the palliative care, there was still a lot of discomfort and pain. Palliative care is not perfect. So many people know it was not his pain. He was actually looking at his wife, who had to give him 24 hours a care and had no life of her own. He said that was the main reason he decided to take assisted euthanasia to give his wife freedom. Can you argue against that? In real cases, when you actually talk to a person, listen to the situation. There's something inside of you said, well, it's killing. Yeah, it's a red traffic light, but maybe this is one of those occasions where it is okay to go across. And this is something which I've always as a monk, because I have to help people in these situations is not theory for me. You know, sometimes people come and say, you know, my, uh, my wife, my husband, my grandparents is sort of in hospital. Should I turn off the machine? You know, because they're asking me, should I do this? What should I do? Or even abortion? People come up and ask me, you know, I've got an unwanted pregnancy or a difficult pregnancy. What should I do? Sometimes people think the monks don't live in the real world, but sometimes they're actually. We face problems which sometimes you only face once. I face them many, many times. So I live life on the edge. And there's many, many times when I've ever been confronted with this personally, or that you've read about it or people have talked about it. This is something inside of you feel you did the right thing. That's right. And sometimes before there's a big of a conflict, because in my guts, where I think this is, I would have done the same thing. But sometimes before I read it, these five precepts, you're not supposed to kill. And there's like a conflict on, you know, between how I felt and the words in the book. And these days, because of maybe Buddhism, how you feel inside is more important than the words in the book. The words in the book are supposed to actually to reflect how you feel inside, how you feel inside. That's the main thing. Because why is it that there is a law being contemplated in the UK to ask you to allow assisted euthanasia? It is because that many people feel in their guts, or they've had experience in this when they think it's the right, compassionate thing to do. And that should not be discounted. What inner feelings, because that's usually a much better indicator of truth than anything which can be written in a book. What you're writing books is approximations. And then if there's any questions here. But if you believe in God's Word, God's Word will be in your guts, not in a book But you find out truth from inside because it doesn't feel right or it feels good. And so that there is a reason why this is being discussed now, because there are sometimes some cases where people feel it's the right thing to do. And so because of that, what a Buddhist, a Buddhist answer is, is we can give you guidelines to find out which of those exceptional cases where it probably will be the proper thing to do. Well, in many cases, it's not the right thing to do. And so in order to find out what you know, what is the right thing, what is the wrong thing to do? We have these guidelines. It's a red traffic light. You should not do this very easily. Emphasised suicide red traffic light stop. And the next thing is when you're making these choices. The Buddha actually gave this wonderful help. When you're in a position of authority, you've got authority over your body, of your mother, over your child, as among you got some sort of decision making to do from time to time how to make decisions. This is actually he said this. Uh, I, uh, what's it called? Like a matrix? Like, uh, for things you should consider when you're making decisions. It's call it the for Haggerty. He called it. He said when you're making decisions to see if you're making it. First of all, from desire, from personal desire, from wanting getting something out of this for yourself, from selfishness. No, from craving. It is, you know, just because you know you want the easy way out or you know you want to get something out of it. Are you advising sort of euthanasia, you know, for your husband so you can go and get married to somebody else? Well, I, I well I you adviser you today's you so you can go and inherit something. Can you not just laughing last week? Because sometimes you go when people are sick. Sometimes I go and ask someone to do some chanting. We're very good at this chanting, and I've got a lot of faith in Buddhist chanting to some extent, people's lives. I think I said this last week, we've got a cat at our monastery. It's over 18 years of age, which is a long affliction. People say, and look at it. It's really healthy. Runs around like a young kitten. Why can it do that? Why is that cat had a long life? It's the same reason why those of you who've been coming to our monastery in serpentine often, you would have noticed a strange thing. It's been a long time since any core member of our Buddhist society has died. We've. We've kept you alive for the last 18, 20 years. I literally can't remember the last person. A core member of our Buddhist study comes regularly who's actually passed away. And the reason is you get all this chanting every week and same as a cat. The characters are chanting every day. No wonder is living to a ripe old age. But the trouble is that sometimes I remember going to one of the hospitals, I forget which one, and doing some chanting for this poor, I think, man or lady who was about to pass away and the relations afterwards told me off as they was about to die. Now starting to get better again. I'm sorry there's part of you to go. Don't let me watch you. Please. I don't know if they wanted to will or something, but they've been in and out of hospital or whatever. And sometimes when it's even you love the person you know, it's time for them to go. They've got no quality of life, so you want to let them go. But so sometimes we want to let them go. And so we actually say sometimes to let nature take its course. We have heard that the phrase let nature take its course. Aren't we part of nature? It's amazing, isn't it? Sometimes we talk about their nature, take its course. We take ourselves out of nature as if we're something separate. But we're in nature as well. Isn't part of nature to care? To be kind, to let nature take his course. We are part of nature. Let compassion take its course as well. Now I can actually see a bigger picture there. Let nature take its course. You see someone who's got no quality of life at all. No other alternatives. Is it time to just turn off the machine? You're letting your compassion, which is part of nature, take its course. Interesting idea, isn't it? Well, the whole point of Buddhism is actually opening up more avenues and more ways of seeing these things and not telling you what to do, but telling you how to make those decisions. So making sure it's not out of craving or desire, also not out of ill will. You want to get rid of that person, but also not out of stupidity. Stupidity is when you haven't got all the information. So whenever you're contemplating or in a position like that, you're going to get as much information as you possibly can to make a wise decision. Has that person got any possibility of surviving? Is there any other treatments? Is it really worthwhile? And it's amazing cases, but sometimes that is one of the women I know very well in Singapore. And she she's told her story and a couple of times in my presence and I've actually repeated her story. She was one of these people in a coma, completely out of it. The doctors thought she was gone. And, uh, so they asked her children who are by the bedside. Their mothers got no chance of surviving. She's basically dead. Shall we turn off the machine? But she was listening at the time. She told the story that she. It's an interesting story. Has she experienced it herself? She went to this very, very dark and black place where everything was just dark. She couldn't see, hear, feel anything. Doesn't know for how long. What brought her back? She said she heard some temple gongs. Being a Buddhist from Singapore. Chinese Buddhists in the far, far distance. She heard his temple gongs. And that was brought her back into consciousness and that into her body, which was back in her body. She could feel, she could hear, she could even see. But she couldn't talk back. She couldn't tell the people around her that she was back, that she could hear them or see them. And she said Susanna's frightening situation. No, she was could see her sons or daughters or friends. She could hear them, but she couldn't respond at all. It was a one way communication in, but she couldn't communicate back again. So they thought she was dead. Just on a machine. She couldn't move her eyes. She couldn't move anything. And then the daughter was talking to her son. There's no chance for your mother. But I need your permission to turn off the machine. So he turned off the machine, and she was listening to this as it was happening. Imagine what it was like in being a Chinese family and being all cowards. They said, this is senior son, the eldest son's job. You decide to put all of the responsibility on this one boy. You said, I can't make this decision by myself. And it's your decision because we can't make it. So this young man had to make the decision. And this woman said at the time she was just willing with everything she had. Please don't set it off. I'm still here. Please. Please. Please. And it was just, you know, very, very, you know, it's like the biggest exam of your life. Just imagine how nervous you would be when someone had held your life and death in their hands. And his son thought for a while and said, give her another day and I'll thank you, she thought. And by the end of the next 24 hours, he could move slightly. And that first movement, they realised then, you know, she was coming back. And so now they never switched the machine off. And so she came back and she started the whole journey with lots of physiotherapy, learning how to walk again, speak again. And now you would never distinguish her from just an ordinary elderly lady to come back again to life. It's an interesting situation that and there's many other cases like it, as sometimes you don't know the truth. Sometimes the doctors make mistakes as well. They think a person's gone, but they're not. So how can you find out if that's your situation and say, should we turn off the machine or not? What would you do? As a Buddhist or just a spiritual person. This is what you should do. Listen. Make your mind still and peaceful. And listen with everything you've got. Mind to mind, I'm sure. Actually, that is why that sun said. Keep her going for a day. She was actually trying to communicate with him. That was her son. There has to be a connection between mothers and son. Close relations or close friends. Work on that connection. Feel the kind of way. All the thoughts and the worries and all this sort of stuff which stops you being sensitive stuff. All this idea of rules, business. This is what I should do. That's what I should do, because that blocks out. You're being sensitive to the situation. Just like you come to the red traffic light, look backwards and forwards very carefully to see if there's any danger. And when you're really sensitive like that, you will know what to do and you can trust that it feels good, it feels right, and 99.9% of the time it will be right. My saying is always follow your guts unless you've got stomach ache. So this is actually how we made the decision. The last thing. So not ignorance? No, we get all the information, but be that wisdom from silence and the last thing, never act out of fear. Those are the four things you should never act out of. You should check whenever you're making a decision. Don't act to desire ill will. Stupidity and fear. Now one of the problems with religions, I must say, or laws. It just adds this, this ingredient of fear into our decision making. Oh, I'm gonna go to hell if I sort of turn off the machine or turn off the machine. People are going to criticize me. They're going to shout at me. If I do these things, they're going to reject me. And that fear business sometimes just messes up decision making, especially ethical decisions which are on the edge of right and wrong and confuses the issue so much, which is one of the reasons why inside of me, I don't want law to get involved in these decisions, because it just adds a fear into it. The fear of, you know, going to court and being, you know, fined or sent to prison. Because the legalities of it create fear. Obviously the law has a part to play, but it should in those very grey areas of right and wrong. You know, because people, for some people, they would argue they wouldn't be arguing about it if it was black and white. It's a grey area, and sometimes the law should bat out of those grey areas and give people the confidence to make their own decisions as support, to make a good decision. They're always getting rid of those things which which, uh uh, make people make the wrong decisions such as fear. And to know that whatever decision you make, as long as it's done rationally, not desire, no ill will, no delusion, no fear. To know when you made that decision, you won't be punished. If you make the wrong decision, you learn from it. He won't be punished, but you'll be encouraged. You'll be held with compassion to deal with the aftermath of that decision. Because this is what happens sometimes with abortions. It's a very difficult decision to make for a woman. And in the end, a woman will make that decision even if it's against the law. We all know that this the old backstreet abortions in the old days. The decision will have to be made. We want to help the person make the decision wisely. And when it comes to the abortion. End of the the argument. Yeah, it is wrong to kill and the fetus in the womb is a sort of being, but interesting for those who want to know that the the Buddhist idea because we have this idea of rebirth. What actually happens is heaps and heaps of evidence for rebirth. I know I take it as a fact. I know it's true. I don't mind going now on the video. Rebirth is true is the facts. When you understand, like rebirth, it gives the whole picture of like abortion and euthanasia. Life and death are completely different perspective. And what actually happens is like the being from the previous life, we call it the stream of consciousness. He comes into the mother's womb at a certain time, and that time can be just after, uh, the implantation in the, in the uterus, or it can be much later. According to the evidence, the stats, if you like, from people who can remember their past lives, sometimes even a few days before birth. The new stream of consciousness can come into that mother's womb, into the fetus, and until that time, until a separate consciousness literally sort of descends into that womb, which is how the Buddha called it. Then that fetus is literally just a part of the mother. It is in a part of her body. It is not a separate being. It's only when the new stream of consciousness comes in there that it does become an independent step of being as, although still very much connected to the mother, but separate. So according to the theology, if you like, of Buddhism, the the metaphysics of it, you can't really tell sometimes whether in a killing the fetus is actually killing a new being or actually just, you know, same as like having a some part of a woman's body cut out, whether it's a being was part of the mother. That's why it's so difficult actually to say whether it is killing what is cutting out a tumor I'm not just being glib here. This is actually how what happens. But we always because we don't know we should never kill. However, in such a situation that as many people have the experience, they've had an abortion and they want to know what happens afterwards. And there was a last, uh, very recently in the Abdul group. A lady asked this question. She's here this evening. I saw her earlier. Please excuse me. I'm sure I think you don't mind me sharing this piece of advice. She felt very, uh. Upset about it for many years, as many women would do. So she asked my advice. And what's happening there? And one thing which I mentioned to her, and this again, it's part of the the truth of rebirth, because one of the questions I asked her, did you have any children later? And she had another child shortly later. And I said that this is actually what happens. The baby was to come into your womb. They got some karma with you. And very often that we take rebirth in people we know and sort of, you know, our friends, our relations, someone that we got some connection with in Tales of Rebirth. Very often people get reborn in the same family, because if you got like a, you know, wife or sister, a mother you really, really love that sort of connection, that bond you can feel, that bond that will actually go off into your next life and you'll be attracted into that person again or attracted close to them again. So you can meet again. You can be with each other again. And so I said to that being who will try to get in your room once. They'll probably try again. I just said to her that your second child, while the child you had after that abortion is 99% sure that was a being that you couldn't make it the first time. I imagine the response of that woman to that answer was actually just so, uh, helpful because in an abortion, we think we're cutting off that person. They've got no chance of a life. You know, they had this opportunity to come into this life and it's all been ruined and killed in religions or philosophies which think you only have one life. And of course, this human life becomes so important, so precious. It makes a whole ethical judgment a completely different ballgame. But, you know, with Buddhism, Hinduism and any other religion which understands the truth of rebirth becomes a completely different ballgame because they say. And that was a good example there. And you had to be. And they didn't make it the first time, but they had another chance and they came into your room and you, you finished your pregnancy and gave birth to this boy. And that was almost certainly the person who was there before. The reason I say this is because this is all custom in Thailand, especially when a child dies either for a miscarriage or a stillborn. They put a mark on their body. This happened here that, you know, here this evening. The supporters of this temple, this Thai couple whose first child died in, died just a day or two before it was born. You know what happens. The fetus had an ultrasound a few days before it turned in the womb. Strangled itself with the umbilical cord. So stillborn. They told me that at the funeral service, which I conducted just up the road in Wanneroo Road, just while the funeral director, and when I wasn't watching with a ballpoint pen, they made a mark on the heel, just a line. And then it was cremated. And a few months later she became pregnant again. And when the baby was born, they found it had a birthmark, a line on the heel exactly where they put it before. It's an old custom. The being who tried and just failed. The last step just before birth had had another go. Second time lucky. The same is a woman who had an abortion. Second time lucky. When you put it that way, some of the sting of abortion has is taken away of being is trying to get into this world. They try once and may try again. If they don't make it with you, they make it with something else. It's a different ballgame. And of course, in such situations that I'm not a man. Most religions are run by men and I can't actually say to anybody, that's right, that's wrong. You can just help people make the decisions. So certainly try not to act out of ill will or, um, craving desire. And it is because it's easy for you not to have a child, not to act out of stupidity. Now find out exactly what's going on. What's the possibilities are for looking after that child, getting support and having it adopted or whatever. And so it's not out of fear. No. Whatever decision you make, you'll always get support. So when somebody rings me up and asks me sort of now I'm pregnant. But you know, for one reason or another, I just can't have that child. They asked me that advice. This is the advice I give them as a Buddhist leader who said, I can't tell you and I will not tell you what to do if I can help you make your decision. And whatever decision you make, compassion will always be there for you. Because I know just how difficult it must be. I don't really know how difficult it is, but I can emphasize how difficult it must be. I was saying that I'd always support you. Whichever way you do, no matter what you do, you'll always be allowed in here as a friend. If you made a mistake. If it is really wrong, you feel it inside. Not as guilt. because sometimes we feel guilty. It's not that we know it's a mistake. We think that everyone else says it's a mistake. You know, the sort of religious leaders or the law says it's wrong, but you feel, no, it's right inside. And we have this conflict between what we're told and what we really understand inside of us, inside the case, believe what's inside of you. But a lot of times there is still some little pain there. And the real the response from Buddhists or anybody is to support, to be compassionate. You made a mistake and allow people to make mistakes. So they can learn, so they can grow into being more compassionate and especially with, you know, with abortion. Now, how did that child get into your womb in the first place? Be a bit more careful next time, if at all possible. You know, there was. That's a real mistake there. So learn the mistakes. You don't have to go through that again. But if you think that being has been deprived of a life, they'll come back again. They tried it once or try again and then maybe come back the next time. So you're not denying them a lie. You're just delaying the life. Just like this evening, I'm supposed to go off to to India on a pilgrimage. I don't know that I've heard from my disciples in Singapore, work for Singapore Airlines. Sometimes the Singapore Airlines overbook the flight, and you could turn up at the airport and you find that there's no seats for you. Even if you got your ticket, you get bumped off. It's very similar to an abortion. But if you use the same word to bomb, someone offers to kill them. But you know, if that happens, you usually get on the next flights. If you wish another being's of a better life as a result of such action. It's the it's the other beings come. You just can't sort of, uh, you know, just give them that, sort of that pass. It's not up to you. It's really up to them. So but, you know, you can wish them well. This may be as much as one can do, but what I am, the whole purpose of this talk this evening is actually to see that in many cases, not in all cases, that the ethics here is so complex It's hard to give black and white a decision. And I've seen in the newspaper, people fulminating about abortion is wrong. Now you should give women choice. No, euthanasia is always wrong. It's an evil, it's a sin and stuff like that. And that sort of just makes the the whole discussion just so complicated. And it just muddies the water. It's not compassionate, it's not wise. It's certainly nothing to do with Buddhism. And the body's response. You may think this is a bit wishy washy, but we are in great areas here. But as only show the way, the five precepts were guideline. There are exceptions to every rule. Rules are manmade. I was going to say woman maybe they usually manmade. Except in the kitchen. The kitchen rules were made. And this was Margaret Thatcher. She made a few rules. so I suppose that's one exception. And if you want to trust the heart, and that's usually the best indicator of what's right and wrong. The point is to allow to trust that heart have made sure you're never working from these like for a Gatiss not desire ill will, stupidity or fear. And so get all the information and get some support. So when you're in a position this is not a theory anymore. It's not where you're going to vote. This is in law or not. This is actually reality. You have to make a decision. It's you or your loved one who's at stake here, or your baby in your womb when it's a real decision, not some theory. This is how you make those decisions. The guidelines are there. It's a red light. Usually killing is wrong. 99.999% of the time, as long as the wrong thing to do. But it's those exceptions, those rare cases. You have to know how to make those decisions. Stop at that red light. See if it's safe now. Helped you understand to see if it's safe, and only if it's an emergency and it's safe, then go across. You feel in your heart this is the right thing to do. And that's why the Buddhist said karma. This is what we're talking about here. This is a Buddhist ethics. So the calm are the most important ingredient in Karma's intention. What do you mean by this was his purpose? And there's a beautiful saying of the Buddha. Karma is basically intention. What do you mean? And if you really meant his compassion and kindness, you really thought it was a good idea at the time. And you, you weren't as heedless. You'd got the information you considered carefully. No design, no ill will, no fear. And we really think this is the most compassionate thing to do. It was selfless. It was caring like that, Mr. Dent. And you can't blame it. In the time of the Buddha, there were some people who did commit suicide. These were arrogant, sinful, in-line beings. In that case, the Buddha said no suicides were blameless. He did show the world exceptions to those rules. Rare exceptions, but exceptions were there. So in this euthanasia debates, in this abortion debate, we should have those guidelines. The laws should be there for the obvious cases where it's obviously wrong. But in those areas, those grey areas, I think that we need support, not laws. We need guidelines rather than hard and fast rules. And I think that we should be compassionate and helpful rather than dogmatic and cruel. And when people make mistakes in such areas, it's a completely different thing than I would like to like to kill your wife with a kitchen knife, than actually to ask the people to turn off the machines or have assisted euthanasia. It's a completely different ballgame. It's not murder. Not in the same sense of murdering someone, you know, who's, uh uh, who you don't like. You feel that? You know that. And so we shouldn't use those those terms. And this is how you can make those decisions. And you can live with them. Learn by them. Become a better person because of them and help other people at the same time. Euthanasia is a Greek word meaning a good death. Interesting that that is the word which is used for assisted suicide. A good death. I'll leave you to think about that. Thank you. Okay. Any questions about this topic? Yeah. Go on. More comfortable? One. More thing. I'm sorry. What is your operation? I'm very good here. It's. Sometimes you think I should repeat the question. Uh, you're saying that it's not an easy decision. So for a woman to make about an abortion, it's not an easy decision for a person to make on euthanasia also. And it's a traumatic decision for the woman. It's a traumatic decision for all concerned, even in the euthanasia. And to the politicians that can be dogmatic on that issue. But then it seems to be that it's a bit of hypocrisy that we can actually send people to war. And our society does condone killing in certain situations. Self-Defense. And that self-defense is used as an excuse for sending people to war. Preemptive strikes and stuff like that. And so that, you know the most even our politicians and the law and even sort of all theologians, you know, they have this idea of a just war. There was Aquinas, I think, who started that. So, you know, they say in some situation there is exceptions to the rule. Thou shalt not kill. We know there's exceptions. And actually we should actually also understand there are exceptions in other places as well. Now with, uh, euthanasia and with abortion, but with the idea, with the comment that the decisions are very traumatic. They are traumatic and part of the law. A government, human beings, especially religious leaders, is trying to take away that trauma by because a lot of the trauma comes back because of what society imposes upon the person making the decision. If a lot of people come and say, that's wrong, that's evil, you go to hell. You're a terrible person. You've murdered your child. When people actually take that on board and they're easily influenced. Of course. What does that feel? If you have been in an abortion clinic for one reason or another, you've done that and you come out and these protestors start calling you a murderer. And of course, that adds to the trauma. It's not a compassionate and a helpful thing to do. And I think that if we have a wiser, more compassionate way of dealing with those problems, one of the things would actually ease the trauma of people having to make those decisions. And part of the reason for the talk is to ease that trauma as part of my job, not to make the decision to help you make the decision and to ease. Take away as much trauma as possible by saying it's okay to make a mistake. If it was a mistake, I don't know if you have made a mistake. It's okay to make. You're not going to go to hell for it. Learn from that mistake. As you've heard me say before, this AFL code. Acknowledge. Forgive. Learn. Acknowledge. Forgive. Learn. Cancel. Deny and say I didn't do this or someone else did it or I wasn't. I didn't have much choice about it. You did have the choice. Acknowledge but forgive and learn from it. No guilt, no punishment, and learn to be a good person. So yeah, that's true. I fully agree with what you said. Did that sort of answer the question? Okay. Any other comments about this topic? You may not agree with actually the answers which are given. Again, I'm not the spiritual dictator. I'm a director. So you're quite. You're very welcome if you disagree with me. But the point is, the purpose of this talk was not to tell you what to do, but to show you how decisions are made and how religion should be helping you, rather than telling you what to do. But to show the way, it's up to you to walk. Showing your paths for you to find out for yourself. And so your life is that learning experience. But I know that you've always got friends on the journey, and whatever you decide to do, I'll always be your friend. So there's a talk for this evening. So thanks very much for listening.